Sir John Kirwan spent Sunday morning on Rugby Rivals in a Springboks jersey, being asked by Victor Matfield whether New Zealand would regret Scott Robertson if the All Blacks lose to England in November. He said no, called three straight defeats learnings, and named the two locks he would pick for the next twelve months.
“I don’t see them as losses, Ricardo. I see them as, you know, pissed off about it, but I see them as learnings.”
Sir John Kirwan, 63 Tests on the All Blacks wing and a World Cup winner in 1987, said it on Sunday 13 September, the morning after South Africa closed out Rugby’s Greatest Rivalry 3-1 in Baltimore. He had not slept. He was wearing a Springboks jersey. And the man asking, Ric Salizzo, had just told him that three Test defeats in a row was “a big deal”.
What followed on Rugby Rivals ran for twenty minutes and contained a fix list, a defence of Dave Rennie and a comparison that will not go down well in Auckland. Whether it also contained a way back is the argument below.
John Kirwan did not sleep, and he does not call them losses
Cape Town 33-26. Soweto 29-24. Baltimore 43-28. The ledger of the four Tests is on the series review. Kirwan’s opening line on the show was “I’m very, very grumpy. I did not sleep last night after that game.”
Later, asked why he looked so sad, he stopped joking.
“I am sad because I care about this game incredibly. I didn’t sleep… But I still don’t like losing. That’s all there is to it. And I don’t like it when there’s critical moments in the game that [are] 50/50 and they go against you… The best team won. Let’s put that out there. But I just get upset when the All Blacks lose, mate. It makes me sad. And especially when I have to wear this jersey and I have to go to the doctor again to get rid of the rash that it causes on my skin.”
That is the emotional version. The argued version came when Salizzo, a New Zealander himself, said the quiet part: “you got to own up to the fact that we’ve lost the last three Tests in a row, and that’s a big deal.”
“I think we’ve lost three Test matches, but they all could have gone either way, and we’re against the best in the world. Now, we want to be the best in the world… So for me, I don’t think you walk away going, ‘Oh, we lost three Test matches. We need to worry.’ We need to make sure that we understand those critical moments and we learn from them… you’ve got to play four games like that in the World Cup to win. And one of them you’re going to be shaky.”
Could have gone either way is true of Cape Town, by seven, and Soweto, by five. It is a stretch for Baltimore, which was 29-21 on 65 minutes and then had 14 South African points in six.
Matfield, 127 Tests, a Springboks captain and a World Cup winner in 2007, did not let it pass. “So JK doesn’t care about winning. It’s just about growing. It’s about the process. Winning has gone out the window for him now.”
Kirwan’s reply: “See, how can I have an intelligent conversation with you two idiots?… Of course I hate losing. I didn’t sleep all night, you muppets.”
“Will they think they made a mistake by changing Scott Robertson?”
The uncomfortable question was Matfield’s.
“Everyone has been talking very positive about Dave Rennie. Let’s say you lose one more game [on] the end of year tour. Let’s say you lose against England or Scotland, end of year tour. What then? Will they still be happy with him? Will they think they made a mistake by changing Scott Robertson?”
The background matters here. NZR ended Robertson’s tenure on 15 January after its 2025 review, at what chairman David Kirk called the mid-point of the World Cup cycle, with both parties agreeing it was “in the best interests of the team that he depart”. Rennie was named on 4 March, took up the post in June, and won his first Test 34-32 against France in Christchurch on 4 July. He has been in the job since June.
Kirwan’s answer was a full defence with a tell at the end.
“No, I don’t think they will. I think everyone, including the players, are happy. I think there’s a direction in the team that we all believe in… I think when you lose a series like this, you go away, and I don’t think it was a coaching issue… I think there was a couple of selection things that I think people will say, okay, should [Rieko] have been on the bench, or should he have played on the left wing?… So no, I think everyone’s really happy with Dave. He won’t be happy. The players won’t be happy. We need to regroup. We’ve got Australia now. So we need to keep winning for the pressure to go away and for Dave to stay relaxed in his job.”
He answered the question by admitting it exists. Nobody says a coach needs to keep winning to stay relaxed in his job unless the alternative has crossed their mind.
Read also: Rennie made the same case with a stat sheet an hour after the final whistle, and the clock disagreed with him from the 72nd minute.
The fix list: two locks, one fly-half, a 23 by November
The useful part of the episode is the part where Kirwan stops defending and starts selecting.
“So I think we need a locking combo. Victor will know this. I think great sides have combinations. They’re nine and 10. They’re four and five, right? And an amazing loose forward. So I think what we need to do is settle on a couple of locks that are going to lock us through the next 12 months. And you got to play them regardless, obviously injuries or illness aside. So I think Josh Lord and Fabian [Holland], maybe I’d go, okay, let’s do that… So I think we’ve got to settle on what might look like our 23. And we need to do that this November and over this [Bledisloe] Cup series.”
Neither of his locks started in Baltimore. Holland was ill and unavailable. Lord, who took a head knock at Ellis Park and missed the next two Tests, came off the bench on 57 with New Zealand fifteen behind. Sam Darry and Patrick Tuipulotu started, and the Baltimore ratings gave the second row a 6 and a 6.5. Four Tests, three different starting pairs. Kirwan’s point is not that the wrong men played. It is that nobody was allowed to become the right ones.
Then the halves.
“So yeah, look, our nine’s the best in the world. We need to settle on who the 10 is… We’ve got three 10s. Who’s going to be the first one? So we’ve got the nucleus there.”
Cam Roigard is not the argument. The 10 is. Ruben Love started the first three Tests, the call to start Richie Mo’unga in Baltimore was made before Soweto, and Beauden Barrett came off the bench late and scored. A week earlier Kirwan had said he would not be surprised to see Mo’unga at 10. Now it has happened, he wants a decision, not a rotation.
“We’re a little bit like South Africa was in 2015”
This is the line that will travel, and it came in the same answer.
“The difference between us and South Africa is South Africa have settled. They’ve been through those moments where the diamonds come out, like Malcolm Marx. So for me, they’re a mature side like we were in 2015, right? And I think that we’re a little bit like South Africa was in 2015. We’re forming and we’re coming through. So for me, yeah, I think the nucleus is there. We just need to settle on some combos.”
Read the comparison both ways. New Zealand in 2015 won the World Cup. South Africa in 2015 lost to Japan in Brighton, lost the semi-final to New Zealand by two points, and won the next two World Cups with the core of that squad. Kirwan is placing his own side one cycle behind the Springboks and calling it a compliment to both.
It is also an admission about experience. The experience gap is 958 caps to 606 across the two matchday squads, and Kirwan’s own reading of Baltimore was that New Zealand “made critical errors under pressure that a young team makes, that hasn’t really been put under that sort of pressure ever.”
Rassie can relax. Dave cannot
Matfield’s closing point was about where the pressure now sits.
“I think more pressure on New Zealand now. Because, I mean, let’s say they slip one against Australia, then all of a sudden the question will be, did we get better or aren’t we there?”
Kirwan agreed, and went further than his own headline.
“I agree that Rassie is under less pressure now. He can experiment. I don’t think Dave is. I don’t think we got better from the third to the fourth Test, to be fair. I think there were some critical errors made by some players who made them in the third Test and the second Test possibly. So I think the All Blacks will not be happy when they relook at that performance… Rassie can relax, but we can’t. We’ve got to really nail off the next 5 months and then have a good break, and then it’s World Cup year.”
The next five months are the Bledisloe Cup at Eden Park on Saturday 10 October and in Sydney a week later, then the Nations Championship pool games in November: Scotland at Murrayfield on 7 November, Wales in Cardiff on 14 November, England at Twickenham on 21 November. Matfield’s hypothetical was England or Scotland. Wales is in there too.
Salizzo had the last word on the man in green. Kirwan, he said, was the same person he had congratulated straight after the 1987 World Cup final, who replied that he had missed three tackles. Learnings was always the vocabulary. The question is whether the men picking the team hear it the same way.
Read next:
– Rassie Erasmus would not call the Springboks the better team: the man Kirwan says can relax, and what he said about the margin instead.
– New Zealand outscored South Africa over the first three Tests: the evidence for “could have gone either way”, with the tee doing the rest.
– Kirwan’s conspiracy claim from August: the last time he was this angry on air, it was at Rassie Erasmus.
Frequently asked
What did John Kirwan say about the All Blacks losing three Tests in a row?
That they “all could have gone either way” against the best side in the world, that he sees them as learnings rather than losses, and that New Zealand must settle on two locks, a first-choice 10 and a 23 by November.
Is Dave Rennie under pressure after the Springboks series?
Kirwan says the players and the public back him and the defeats were not “a coaching issue”, but added that New Zealand “need to keep winning for the pressure to go away and for Dave to stay relaxed in his job”. Victor Matfield says the pressure has moved from Rassie Erasmus to Rennie.
When do the All Blacks play next?
The Bledisloe Cup against Australia at Eden Park on 10 October and in Sydney on 17 October, then Nations Championship pool games away to Scotland on 7 November, Wales on 14 November and England on 21 November.
Your turn: learnings, or a losing habit?
Two readings of the same three results. Either they were three Tests against the best side in the world that could have gone either way, and a young squad banks them. Or three in a row to the same opponent is a pattern, and the man calling them learnings is wearing the other team’s jersey. Kirwan says the first. Salizzo, from the same city, says three is a lot of Tests to lose. Settle it below.
